Our “GILTI Conscience” podcast team, led in this episode by associates Eman Cuyler and Stefane Victor, presented a thought-provoking episode in recognition of Women’s History Month. They were joined by Washington, D.C. office head and tax partner Jessica Hough and Skadden alum and PWC senior tax policy adviser Pam Olson, who discussed their career paths, successes and leadership strategies. The speakers also covered a wide range of topics that focused on creating an inclusive work culture, paving the way for diverse candidates in the field of tax, cultivating relationships with mentors and striking a crucial work-life balance, among many other topics.
In this episode of the “Guilty Conscience” podcast, Skadden attorneys Eman Cuyler and Stefane Victor are joined by Jessica Hough, tax partner and head of Skadden’s Washington, D.C. office, and Pam Olson, a tax policy consultant at PwC, both of whom have significant experience advising on issues related to tax policy.
Tune in to this special episode in which two very distinguished women leaders within the tax community share their insights, experience and strategies for success, as well as how to lead with purpose.
Key Points
- The importance of creating an inclusive culture. The podcast speakers discuss how it’s critical to be welcoming to ensure that not only women but anyone who might be perceived as being different feels included and a part of the team. Pam further discusses the importance of learning from others from different backgrounds and taking the time to “walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes.”
- The benefits of being involved within the tax community. Involvement gives you opportunities you wouldn’t otherwise have, such as access to leaders and mentors, a chance to showcase your expertise and polish your credentials, as well as a broader perspective of the world.
- Advice for cultivating relationships. Jessica talks about the importance of being curious and not judgmental. She describes how often if you spend more time listening to a person, asking questions and finding out who they are, there’s a good chance you will develop a deeper relationship with them.
Voiceover (00:02):
This is GILTI Conscience, casual discussions on transfer pricing, tax treaties and related topics. A podcast from Skadden that invites thought leaders and industry experts to discuss pressing transfer pricing issues, international tax reform efforts and tax administration trends. We also dig into the innovative approaches companies are using to navigate the international tax environment and address the obligation everyone loves to hate. Now your hosts, Skadden partners, David Farhat and Nate Carden.
Eman Cuyler (00:35):
Welcome back to GILTI Conscience. I’m Eman Cuyler. With me today I have Stefane Victor. We’re filling in for Skadden tax partners Nate Carden and David Farhat to bring to you a very special episode for Women’s History Month. Today we’re speaking with two very distinguished women leaders within the tax community who will share with us their insights, experience and strategies for success, and also how to lead with PartFest. To start with introduction, we have Jessica Hough who’s a Skadden Tax Partner who has been at the firm for over 20 years.
(01:10):
Jessica wears many different leadership hats within the firm, including serving as the current Head of the Washington DC office. With us, we also have Pam Olson. Pam is currently the Senior Tax Policy Advisor at PWC. And prior to that, Pam has done many different things, including working at the IRS, serving as the Assistant Secretary of Tax Policy at Treasury and being a Skadden alum, as Pam was a Skadden tax partner at the Washington DC office. Thank you both for taking the time to speak with us. We are really excited to speak with you. To kick off the discussion, can you guys start by telling us a little bit about your career journey and how you got into tax? Maybe we could start with you, Jessica.
Jessica Hough (01:56):
Sure. Thanks. Thanks for having us. So, when I was in college, I was majoring in accounting at UT Austin and they had this five-year program where you get your bachelor degree and your master’s at the same time and you had to choose whether you’re going to do an audit track or tax or consulting. And I had taken a tax class in undergrad and I liked it, so I chose the tax track. And my summer between my senior and graduate year, I was out in San Diego at, I think it was Deloitte back then, the big six accounting firms doing tax returns that summer and I hated it. I thought it was so boring and I was like, “There’s no way I can do this for the rest of my life.” So, when I got back to school, I was like, “Oh, I’ll go to law school,” which I did obviously, but I always liked the tax aspects but not the compliance so much. I like the substantive, figuring out a puzzle aspects of tax. So, that’s my story on tax.
Eman Cuyler (02:55):
Awesome. What about you, Pam?
Pam Olson (02:57):
Well, mine’s not terribly dissimilar. I studied political science as an undergrad and planned to go to law school. And when I finished my undergrad, all of my friends were going on to get MBAs. And I started worrying about the fact that I didn’t know anything about business and I wondered how good a lawyer I would be if I didn’t know something about business. So, I decided to get an MBA. Then went to law school. After my first year in law school, I was so bored I wanted to quit and go to work. And when I went interviewing for jobs, invariably I was asked to meet with the general counsel of the company who told me, “First year is the worst year. Stick it out kid, it’ll get better.” And so I did go back to law school and second year met a Coopers & Lybrand partner who basically said the same thing. “Yeah. Law school’s really boring, but you’ll enjoy practicing and given your business background and your appreciation and enjoyment of being in the business world, you should think about tax, because it’s like solving puzzles. And it’s about finance and it’s about economics and it’s understanding the guts of what makes a company work. So you should try that.” So, I did.
Eman Cuyler (04:17):
Yeah. I think my story of how I got into tax is also very similar. When I was in law school, I took federal income tax with Judge Halpin at the tax court. And honestly I liked the class, but I really liked him as a professor. I thought he was really interesting and that piqued my interest in tax. And I continued to take more classes and I really feel like a career in tax is one of those things where it’s constant learning. So, two days are never the same. And I feel like even though I have now been doing this for a few years, I’m always challenged. And that aspect of it is very rewarding. For both of you, after law school, where did you start, Jessica? You came straight to Skadden and then went to clerk. Right?
Jessica Hough (05:03):
I did. I did. So, I was a summer associate and started at Skadden DC right after law school. And then, was here for two years and then went to the tax court and then came back to Skadden. I think two reasons why I went to Skadden in the first place and then went back to Skadden after my clerkship were, number one representation and number two, feeling wanted. So, when I was a summer associate, I actually clerked and I split my summer between a different law firm in Chicago and then came out to Skadden DC second half of the summer. And I had good experiences at both law firms, but the firm in Chicago, the tax group did not have a woman tax partner, and Pam was at Skadden. And that made a difference to me and I liked the idea of being in a tax group that had promoted a woman to partner, and I felt like maybe they get it a little bit more.
(05:55):
And so, ultimately that’s why I chose Skadden. And then, when I went and clerked, Pam kept in touch with me. We went to lunch one time when I was clerking. She made it clear she wanted me to come back. Pam probably doesn’t even remember this. But, in 1999 there was the Women’s World Cup and it was in DC. There was a game at RFK Stadium and I was at the game and Pam was at the game with her daughters, I think. And I just happened to run into Pam and I saw her sitting there watching the game. And I went up beside her and just sat down next to her. I didn’t say anything, I just sat down next to her. And she looked over and saw me and she was like, “Jessica!” And she patted me on the leg and she was genuinely happy to see me. And I think having somebody feel that way about you, you’re wanted, I think that makes a big difference when you’re a woman.
Stefane Victor (06:42):
Yeah. So my journey to tax had to do with Jessica because was at Skadden before law school. But, when I was thinking about what practice groups I’d join, I really appreciated ... And this was universal Skadden, but it was different than what I expected for joining any practice group at any law firm, is how people spoke about Jessica. It wasn’t like a great and almighty powerful and scary leader. It was more of just like Jessica makes people feel welcome. And so, I think that is something that you have kept throughout your career. And I can see it as important for other folks as they’re joining practice groups or law firms.
Pam Olson (07:24):
If they had played soccer with Jessica, they might’ve [inaudible 00:07:29]
Eman Cuyler (07:30):
Pam, throughout your career, is that something that you’ve always been mindful of? Trying to create inclusive culture so that not only women, but just anyone that could sometimes be perceived as being different, feels welcomed and is a part of the team?
Pam Olson (07:43):
Yes. Absolutely. It is absolutely critical to make sure that you’re welcoming. We learn so much from people with different backgrounds than our own and different experiences than our own. And so, it’s really important to surround yourself with people who aren’t all cut from the same cloth. But, at any rate, yes. It’s something I’ve always been conscious of. And when you do see somebody from a different background who’s maybe coming into a meeting for the first time or situation for the first time, that’s one of the things I always try to do, is make sure that they feel welcome and comfortable.
Stefane Victor (08:19):
Pam, it seems that you went a step beyond just being inclusive. Jessica said a few times that she felt wanted at Skadden. And is that something that you kept at top of mind, like top of mind when dealing with associates? Or is that something that just happened naturally to make people feel valued and they’d be wanted back?
Pam Olson (08:42):
I think it’s something you always have to be thinking about. It means you have to step outside of yourself, right? You’ve got to try and put yourself in the other person’s shoes. And that’s something that I think my mother drilled into me from a very young age, walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes. It’ll give you a completely different perspective on things and help you relate better to them and help them. I can think of times when, whether it was me as an associate or it was me reviewing somebody else’s work when the sheet ended up covered with red ink. Of course we don’t do red ink anymore. But, end up covered with red ink. But, the point is that even when you’re getting red ink or you’re delivering red ink, you’re learning something from that process. And so, we learn from everybody that we work with and have around us. And so, I try to see the value in all of that all the time. And that I think is a really crucial part of it.
Eman Cuyler (09:40):
One of the things that came to my mind is, as I was preparing for this episode, I realized that you were the first woman to do a lot of different things, including chairing the ABA’s tax section, serving as the Assistant Secretary for tax policy. I know that these roles must have been a great privilege for you. But, were you concerned that like, “Hey, I’m the first woman doing this, so if I don’t do this amazingly this could impact other women,”? Or did you have any concerns similar to that?
Pam Olson (10:09):
I think probably when I was chair of the tax section, I was more concerned with my youth, although I was not the youngest one to do the job. In fact, Armando Gomez, another Skadden partner tax partner might’ve been the youngest to do the job. So, he was younger than I was when he took the job. But, certainly you don’t want to fall on your face. Right? You don’t want to fall on your face, because you want it to be an opening for other women when you’re the first woman to do it. I was certainly mindful of the fact that it was a path and that I was breaking the path. But, I would say it wasn’t the first thing on my mind. The first thing on my mind was wanting to do a good job of leading the tax section and feeling like there were changes afoot and there were things that we needed to do and needed to be focusing on and to move in that direction.
(11:05):
And as the Assistant Secretary, one of my mentees once said to me, “Pam, you’re being too logical. You should stop. It’s holding you back.” I did bring probably more organization into ... I think the organization I brought into the role was important. We really did plot a course that we wanted to take, and I think we did a lot to move things in that direction. Ultimately, the role is caught between technical and political. And the political stuff happens and you got to roll with it. So, that was one of the things I was conscious of, was making sure I didn’t fall on that.
Eman Cuyler (11:46):
Pam, can you talk about the importance of being involved generally within the tax community? I have been involved with the ABA’s tax section since law school, to now serving on different chairs committees, and I think I have benefited a lot from it. Some of my closest friends in the tax community come from my involvement in the bar. And also just giving me access to so many leaders within the tax community that I otherwise would not have had. Can you just talk about how you got involved and what are some of the benefits for lawyers in getting involved?
Pam Olson (12:20):
Well, I think you’ve really highlighted that with your own experience. I’ve met so many interesting people through the tax section. Many of my closest friends are people that I became acquainted with through the tax section. I got a lot of mentors along the way through the tax section. It is interesting, when I looked through the list of ABA Distinguished Service Award recipients last year, I was struck by the number of them that I counted as mentors of mine from work that I did at the ABA. It really gives you a broad perspective on the world as well, because you see issues through the lens of a lot of lawyers practicing in different settings, advising different kinds of clients. And so, I think it’s really a great experience. It’s also a good way to burnish your own credentials, gives you opportunities to speak and present. That forces you to think about things in different ways than you might otherwise have thought about them. So, I think it’s just an incredibly valuable experience to be involved in the ABA and other professional organizations.
Eman Cuyler (13:33):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Following up on that, Jessica, can you talk about how, I guess throughout your career, whether it’s at Skadden or otherwise, who are some of your mentors that you feel like have shaped your career and helped you get to where you are as one of the leaders at Skadden?
Jessica Hough (13:52):
Well, I think I had probably several mentors along the way. I had three main ones. Fred Goldberg, who Pam would probably count as a mentor as well. Cliff Gross and Pam Olson. Those are the three that are responsible for where I am today.
Eman Cuyler (14:10):
How did you cultivate those relationship? And the reason why I ask that is, you being a black woman, your mentors are not other folks in the black community. And I think the reason why I bring that up is, it’s often really important to not only seek mentorship from people that look like you, because a lot of people are willing to help. So, can you just talk about how you cultivated those relationships and how they take you under their wings throughout the years?
Jessica Hough (14:37):
Yeah. So, I don’t know that I so much as cultivated them as I got lucky and happened to start working with these three folks who, as you’ve seen from earlier with Pam, like somebody who reached out and wanted me to work with her. I think in order to develop a mentor-mentee relationship with somebody, I think there are a couple of keys. I think the first key is to be yourself, because the whole point of cultivating or forming that relationship is that you’re finding some kind of commonality. Your finding something that draws you to each other or makes that mentor want to look out for you or give you work, et cetera. And in order to get to know each other, I think you have to be yourself.
(15:20):
I don’t know if anybody here’s a Ted Lasso fan, but I just think that the idea of being curious, not judgmental, but being curious, I think that is a great piece of advice, because if you spend more time listening, asking questions about somebody and listening and finding out who they are, that’s going to, I think help you develop a deeper relationship with them. And so I think, I don’t know that I’m back then at least was a curious person, but I felt like I got to know Cliff. I actually had to spend the night at his mom’s house in Pittsburgh when a snowstorm hit when we were traveling on business. But, I felt like I got to know Pam and same thing with Fred. And that just helped deepen the relationship, and I got lucky. And they wanted to help me out.
Stefane Victor (16:05):
So, I guess the question is, would you take me into your house if I got trapped during a snowstorm?
Jessica Hough (16:12):
I would no doubt.
Stefane Victor (16:14):
Did you have an idea of something else that you wanted to do? Or did the path to partnership seem super clear? And how did you plot out your ten-year plan? And was it always clear to you, or did it get murky at times?
Jessica Hough (16:33):
Yeah. It was actually pretty clear, because I was in a very functional group. And so there was a lot of transparency and good communication. When I first joined Skadden I had no idea what I was doing. And Pam can attest to the first two years. She’s probably like, “What is this person up to?” But, I think that’s pretty common. You come in, you don’t really know what to expect, you don’t know what you’re doing. But, as I became a sort of mid-level associate, I started getting messages, people would have conversations with me. And all of a sudden it became like, “Oh, it may be doable that I could make partner here.” And so I don’t know that that’s a common path. I think it’s very dependent on what kind of group you’re in and also the numbers, how many associates or your year that are right. There’s a lot of variables that go into it.
(17:16):
But, for me, it was a relatively easy path because I was in such a functional group. But, I would say for women that are starting out, and this probably applies to anything but maybe women and minorities more so. When you are starting out in big law, I think the advice I would give people is, the first couple of years are probably the most important in terms of the impressions that people are going to have of you.
(17:40):
And so, I try and stress that to associates coming in. The first two years, that’s when you should really start honing your craft and taking on every experience you can. And if it means you’ve got to stay late to triple check something to make sure there’s not a mistake in it, stay late and triple check it. Because if you put in the work those first two years and really make a good impression, it will buy you grace later on when you make a mistake and they will say, “Oh, it’s just an aberration,” or, something’s going on personally, and you have to step back from work. If you’ve put in the work the first couple of years, you’ve set yourself up, I think much better for success.
Pam Olson (18:18):
I agree with that wholeheartedly. I bet you do too, E.
Eman Cuyler (18:25):
Pam, especially since this is specifically focused on women, what are some things that younger lawyers who are women could be doing in the early on to set themselves up for success? Whether they’re at a firm, government, accounting firms, it doesn’t matter.
Pam Olson (18:38):
So, I’m going to go back to the one item that Jessica mentioned, because it’s number one on my list of whether somebody’s going to succeed. And that’s whether you’re curious. Just wanting to know more, wanting to understand more willingness to question, those kinds of things, are the things that make you a better advisor, a better lawyer, a better professional. I think one of the things a mentor once told me was, you need to make yourself indispensable. And that’s when you’re curious, when you’re always thinking about things, always asking questions, that’s what you become. You become indispensable to the people that you’re working with, because you’re always going to be taking an issue, a problem, how to read something and turning it around in your head over and over again. Jessica and I had a colleague years ago who sometimes drove some of our clients crazy, because he never stopped thinking about things. Wake up in the middle of the night and go, “Oh, my gosh! I just thought about ... “ whatever.
(19:38):
But, those are oftentimes the people who keep you out of trouble, the people who never stop thinking about things, who can see things coming around the bend that you missed the first time around and can also help you solve problems. I think back to the times when I would get tired of thinking about something and have to go do something else. And I’d be home cooking dinner or doing the dishes after dinner and go, “Oh, Eureka! I just figured out how to solve the client’s problem.” But, that comes from being curious and from trying to make myself indispensable to the people that I was working with. And then it also goes back to Linda Rickman’s about being relentless. There’s just some of all of those features that have to go into being a really well-rounded professional that’s going to succeed.
(20:33):
And the other thing I would say for young women is don’t be afraid. Don’t be cowed. Don’t let yourself be bullied or pushed around or intimidated. You’re there because you’ve earned the right to be there based on what you’ve done, and never forget that. And always take a positive attitude into whatever it is you’re doing with people, because you have earned the right to be there. You need to count on yourself, what you know, what you’ve learned, what you’ve done in the past to carry you through whatever the situation is.
Eman Cuyler (21:04):
Absolutely. Pam, following up on that, I think too, I feel like we’ve done a really good job in the tax community recruiting more women. But, over the years since you’ve been doing tax, do you feel like we have done all we can to recruit more women in the tax community, to start a career in tax? Or what can be done to move the ball a little bit forward?
Pam Olson (21:29):
I don’t think we’ve done all that we can do, but I am mindful of the fact that the next generation of people coming out maybe don’t have the same kinds of aspirations that my generation did. So there are times when I feel like, “Man, we’ve opened all of these doors and created all these opportunities. What do you mean you don’t want to walk through them?” But, sometimes they don’t. So, I do try to be mindful of the fact that my dreams might not be somebody else’s dreams. And I do think that in some ways the profession is going through some changes and those changes might lead to greater work-life balance that’ll make it easier for women to enter the profession and stay in the profession. But, I think trying to be visible to people, to be accessible to people who want to bounce things off me or understand how to handle things, is something I always try to do.
(22:29):
I was the first woman to chair the tax section. And then I think it was probably another three years or so before another woman chaired the tax section. But, recently we’ve had two women chaired in a row. So, obviously we’ve made a lot of progress. We’ve had two women win the Distinguished Service Award in a row. There are lots of awards named for people or scholarships, fellowships kinds of things named for people in the tax section. And I think two thirds of them are named for women. So, we’ve made a dent. Hopefully we’ve created opportunities and opened doors for people. And now we just need to keep inviting people to come through it, because it is a rewarding area in wish to practice.
Eman Cuyler (23:13):
Absolutely. I think that at least for me coming in as more of a younger practitioner, I definitely feel like the gap is not as visible to me as it might have been to somebody that’s just started maybe 10, 20 years ago. So, we could already see the results, which is definitely encouraging. Jessica, I know at Skadden I do a lot of recruiting and I know the different initiatives that we have to recruit diverse candidates. Can you just talk a little bit about what that effort looks like and why Skadden takes that very seriously?
Jessica Hough (23:47):
Yeah. I think I would describe our recruiting strategy as the word that Pam used that I didn’t realize came from Linda Rickman, but “relentless.” And I remember we were doing OCI one year during the summer and we didn’t do it. We didn’t wind up getting a lot of diverse candidates, and I was feeling a little demoralized that we had spent all this effort trying to recruit and we didn’t get any. And I said something to Pam expressing my dismay at our numbers, and Pam’s response was, “Well, you just keep your foot on the gas and you keep trying. And we’ll do it again next year, and you keep ... “ whatever. This idea that you just have to be relentless and you have to keep trying.
(24:29):
And so, I feel like that’s kind of what we do here, and we do it in different ways. Like, we were the ones that came up with this 1L’s scholars program, where we try and find diverse associates as 1Ls and try and find them early and bring them in and get them acquainted with Skadden and us with them, and then they come back the next summer. We have affinity groups at Skadden that do a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to recruiting, so that we have these individual reach out and touch points, because a lot of times when you’re trying to recruit folks from law schools, they want to go somewhere where they feel like they have representation and they see people that look like them. And so, that’s part of our strategy as well. And then, we try and recruit people who are going to represent our law firm well and reflect our values and be welcoming people that are going to be able to go out and recruit the next generation. So, it’s a multi-pronged approach, but it boils down to being relentless and you just keep trying.
Pam Olson (25:32):
But, I have a black colleague that sat down one time to try to explain to a bunch of white guys what it was like to come into a firm that was mostly white. And how the difference between a young black person coming into the firm versus a young white person coming into the firm, because the white person comes into the firm and they’ve got a lot of fraternity brothers, people who went to the same school, common background to draw on. And the minority person doesn’t have that. They walk in and they’re the only one that looks like them in the room. Nobody else went to their college, they weren’t part of a fraternity, they don’t have the same social network. And so, the affinity groups that you’re describing, Jessica, is such an important way of helping people come in and find connections that then give them confidence and allow them to become part of the broader networks in the firm. I think it’s a really important thing.
Jessica Hough (26:40):
Yeah. 100% agree.
Stefane Victor (26:42):
Jessica? So, I have a question about intersectionality. How did your intersectionality as a gay black woman stay in your focus as an associate? Was it ever top of mind? Is it something that you leaned on mentors to work through? Or how do you feel it helped or added to your experience as an associate at Skadden?
Jessica Hough (27:07):
Yeah. I think in some ways it added to the experience in the sense that I did have a larger community of people that were like me, in the sense that I could be part of the Black Affinity group, part of the LGBTQ Affinity Group, part of Wow Women of Washington and have these different support networks within the firm. I think it also gave me different perspectives on things. So, sometimes I would see things looking through the lens of an LGBTQ perspective. Sometimes I would look at it through the lens of a black person. And I think it gave me just a different perspective on situations, where sometimes people would see something happen and think like black and white, “This is the answer. This is what’s going on.” And I would have a little bit different take on that, because I may have different experiences, whether it be through an LGBT lens versus a lens of being a woman, versus being black. And so, I actually think that in some ways it was helpful.
Eman Cuyler (28:08):
I know that you’ve worked both at public sector, private sector. Can you talk a little bit about how you made that decision for you to work at the IRS first and then go to Skadden? What was your thought process? Did you want new experience? What was the driving force there?
Pam Olson (28:25):
The decision to go to work for the government was an accident of trying to put two careers together. My husband was in the foreign service when we first married, and his first assignment was going to be somewhere outside of the country. That assignment for him lasted a year and a half. We moved back to Washington. I moved back to Washington with the government and finished out. The normal course working for the government is, people go, ... A lot of people go and spend their entire career, but a lot of people go for five years and then go to the private sector. And at the end of the, I guess, a little over five years, I was definitely ready to go to the private sector. So, I started interviewing with law firms and ended up going to Skadden with Fred, previously mentioned, who was invited to join Skadden to start the tax practice in DC at Skadden. And so, I went to Skadden with Fred and it was a wonderful experience.
(29:28):
I did not plan to go back to the government again, but when the position of Assistant Secretary opened up, I was once again convinced by Fred that I had to interview for the job. And so, I went to interview with Paul O’Neill and Ken Dam who had been nominated to be secretary and Deputy Secretary of the Treasury. And I had the most delightful conversation with them. Half an hour of talking about what was wrong with the tax system, what was wrong with tax administration, all the things that needed to be fixed, and we had the opportunities to fix them. And oh, my gosh! And I walked out of there and said, “Rats!” Because I told them they needed somebody with legislative experience for the job, and I didn’t have legislative experience. And so, I walked out thinking “Rats! I would love to work with those guys, but I’m not going to get the offer.” And so, they called me a couple hours later and said, “Don’t go anywhere. We’re going to find a role.” So, that’s how I ended up going to Treasury. It wasn’t on my bucket list, but-
Eman Cuyler (30:29):
When you got there, I guess, did you have any specific goals that you wanted to accomplish at the Treasury?
Pam Olson (30:36):
Simplifying the tax law.
Eman Cuyler (30:38):
That’s a good one.
Pam Olson (30:39):
And something impossible to achieve. But, we did spend a lot of time while I was at Treasury trying to do that. It’s hard to believe at this point when we talk about the huge government deficits we face. But, the government at that time was projecting, both CBO and the Treasury Department were projecting a $5.6 trillion surplus.
Eman Cuyler (30:58):
Before we conclude, I think the one topic that I really wanted to talk about, especially since this is for Women’s History Month, is the idea of work-life balance, especially for a lot of younger associates that want to do high cutting-edge work and still have a family. There’s that struggle of one is going to suffer. So, do you guys have any tips for women that might want to stay in big law, stay in government, stay in accounting firm, and still want to have, for example, a baby or whatever that is? Do you guys have any tips how to manage those two? I know it’s a big one.
Jessica Hough (31:31):
Well, I remember I was at something up in our New York office. This was several years ago. We had some guest speaker in, she was a lawyer who was in-house and pretty high up in our organization. And she was talking about she had a daughter and she had asked her daughter when her daughter was older, “What grade would you give me as a mom?” And her daughter was like, “C. C minus.” And she was like, “Yeah. That resonated. I missed a lot of stuff in my career,” and I was horrified. And I went home that night and I asked my kids, I was like, “What would you give me?” And they were like, “A, Mom. Solid A.” And I felt like, “Yeah. That sounds right,” because I didn’t miss things. I maybe missed one game or one dance [inaudible 00:32:22] and that was it. I tried to plan my schedule around ... When I had things with the kids work was off limits.
(32:30):
And it’s not easy to do. I think the idea of having work-life balance, I do think it’s possible and I think it’s critical. But, I don’t think you can have it on a daily or even a weekly basis. I think you have to measure it over a longer time span, because if you have a deal that’s going and it has to get signed, like things ... You have to give up sleep in order to fit in both work and family. But, over the long term, I think you can have it. And I think if you don’t have work-life balance, my own view is you should get another job, because we have no idea how many turns around the sun we have. But, I do know that on my deathbed, I am not going to be saying, “Boy, I drafted a mean rep letter in my day!” Right? That’s not what it’s about.
Eman Cuyler (33:17):
Jessica, one of the best advice I got when I had my daughter was that you could have it all, but not at the same time. So, some weeks you are going to do amazing work and then maybe the next week you’re going to do great at home. So, the idea of having it all just looks different if you want to have a career and a family. What about you, Pam?
Pam Olson (33:37):
Well, I know one thing for sure. I’m not asking my kids to give me grades. So, I was talking to another woman tax lawyer a couple of weeks ago who reminded me that one of the things I had said to her when her kids were very young was that, it’s not about the quality of the time necessarily. It’s the quantity of the time. And so, lots of times your kids just need to be around you. You may not be reading a book to them. You may not be engaged in a deep conversation, but you’re there. They’re watching you do whatever it is you do, whether it’s working or it’s playing or it’s interacting with family or whatever it happens to be, and they learn from that.
Eman Cuyler (34:22):
Cannot agree more. Definitely good to hear that as a new mom, for sure. Thank you all for taking the time to chat with us. I think this concludes this episode. We really appreciate you taking the time. This is it for GILTI Conscience.
Voiceover (34:39):
Thank you for joining us for today’s episode of GILTI Conscience. If you like what you’re hearing, be sure to subscribe in your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss any future conversations. Skadden’s tax team is recognized globally for providing clients with creative and innovative solutions to their most pressing, transactional planning and controversy challenges. Additional information about Skadden can be found at skadden.com.
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